01:06:17 Wendy Hanamura: If you haven’t yet read Nathan Schneider’s excellent blog, “Distribute Commons Not Commodities” please take a look: https://blog.archive.org/2021/05/27/distribute-commons-not-commodities/
01:09:06 j: no audio?
01:09:18 Sarah Kaplan (she/her): I can hear just fine.
01:09:19 Guo Liu: I can hear audio fine
01:09:26 Margot: audio is good
01:09:26 parkan: excellent pg burn
01:09:41 j: speaker test is working
01:09:47 Andrew Pam: I missed the first 5 minutes thanks to EventBrite making it almost impossible to get the Zoom link
01:10:00 Margot: it's being recorded. :)
01:10:10 Andrew Pam: Thanks
01:10:46 Martin Fulgueiras: Good afternoon
01:12:30 Steve Ediger (ChiCommons LWCA): see p2pfoundation.net for much more about the commons
01:12:50 Sarah Kaplan (she/her): Oh hey @Steve Ediger
01:14:21 Internet Archive: How about starting as, or converting to a 501c3, public charity?
01:14:46 Steve Ediger (ChiCommons LWCA): @Sarah hi, missing you at Chicago CoOp Convergence (coop roundup)
01:14:51 Veronika Winters: zebras!
01:15:04 Derrick Carr (he/him): What a wonderful image!
01:15:04 Veronika Winters: zebras fix what unicorns break
01:15:09 christina bowen: Zebras!
01:15:11 Sarah Kaplan (she/her): Yeah, sorry, long day on computer means I’m out of attention in the evening. Making an exception now.
01:15:45 Steve Ediger (ChiCommons LWCA): exit to cooperative?
01:15:53 Internet Archive: Non-profits do not have owners, which helps.
01:15:58 Margot: that's my goal ^ cooperative
01:16:00 christina bowen: #coopttheworld
01:16:04 Guo Liu: Should ownership be tradable/transferable? If yes, how to avoid it becoming a capital speculation game as most ICOs? If not, does it mean ownership would be worthless in a financial sense?
01:16:52 Sarah Kaplan (she/her): This was done with a purpose trust also.
01:17:06 Veronika Winters: goods Q guo
01:17:12 Veronika Winters: good*
01:17:12 Internet Archive: 11% of US employees are in non-profits (if I remember it right).
01:17:38 Steve Ediger (ChiCommons LWCA): Yes, we can’t have monolithic cooperatives. we need to federate
01:17:46 mitra: I had the same problem as Andrew - took me 8 minutes, and several failed attempts to get registered and into the event. Getting the link with EB sucks, they don’t (unlike everyone else) send it in the email, and you have to have your login to get it (and I had registered as a guest, not by logging in) ….
01:18:06 christina bowen: Perpetual purpose trust info: https://resources.platform.coop/resources/perpetual-purpose-trust/
01:18:31 Veronika Winters: I know some of those people lol
01:18:41 parkan: @guo a lot of the thinking here has to do with separating equity, voting rights, claims to revenue (revenue financing) etc
01:19:03 parkan: so some of these can be transferred while not others
01:19:35 mitra: Non profits are a great way to do it, but how do you get the money to cover the initial development etc till you reach revenue, given how incredibly unimaginative (most) donors are.
01:19:39 Veronika Winters: zebra investors don't have voting rights IIRC
01:19:40 parkan: which allows participants to recapitalize without necessarily consolidating control
01:20:37 Steve Ediger (ChiCommons LWCA): that’s a much narrower view of commons than I’ve heard before
01:20:52 parkan: @veronika are zebra structures formalized at this pt? I thought it was more of a set of principles than a formal structure
01:21:09 christina bowen: ^ +1
01:21:28 duncan: the Wyoming DAO organization would be of interest
01:21:33 Veronika Winters: I was on an info call the other day They have a pretty good structure I can paste link to deck
01:21:57 parkan: would love that, I haven't kept up w new work it seems!
01:22:02 Margot: awesome thank you!
01:22:06 christina bowen: thx!
01:22:09 Toby Negrin: Thank you!
01:22:09 parkan: tyty
01:22:11 Wendy Hanamura: Here are the DWeb Principles that Nathan Schneider helped shape: https://getdweb.net/principles
01:22:14 Veronika Winters: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/19vGV41HeANANe2DWJf7rnsUOxp7-OgpMza623rE-xUk/edit#slide=id.g88909df8e5_10_0
01:22:17 Johannes Ernst: It seems there is a maximum amount of capital a company with an exit-to-community biz plan can attract (not counting speculative effects e.g. with crypto). Agree/disgree?
01:22:26 Wendy Hanamura: And Interested in Exit to Community? e2c.how
01:22:50 Derek Alton: What is the roadmap/strategy to make this more mainstream?
01:23:00 Internet Archive: I love public charities— they take away the incentive of the CEO to sell out.
01:23:18 parkan: who is messaging as IA BTW?
01:23:27 parkan: Brewster?
01:23:32 Internet Archive: Sorry, that is Brewster Kahle. Changing now.
01:23:32 Wendy Hanamura: Internet Archive = Brewster Kahle
01:24:00 parkan: in this context :p
01:24:04 Veronika Winters: interesting!
01:24:23 Derrick Carr (he/him): Exits to community usually operate more at the scale of a market or debt sale than a co-op right? Are there theorized or observed ways to keep the sense of ownership and stewardship present in co-op instead of the diffusion of responsibility in the stock market?
01:24:47 Veronika Winters: good Q Derrick, I've asked myself that before
01:26:30 Mark Carranza: ESOCs?
01:26:34 parkan: "done in some cases like..." couldn't hear
01:26:37 Steve Ediger (ChiCommons LWCA): I’ve always viewed non-profits as just the flip-side of the capitalist coin.
01:26:50 parkan: would love to know what that was
01:26:55 Brewster Kahle: The Internet Archive arranged a “flip to non-profit) for Better World Books (B corp) that got itself in trouble by debt. Took a large onetime grant.
01:27:31 N A E - He/him: Too often flat/ slow growth mid market companies have been targets for Private Equity strip-mining/ debt lading
01:27:40 clairekelley: That’s awesome. I love Better World Books.
01:27:58 Brewster Kahle: BWB is now owned by Better World Libraries, a non-profit.
01:28:45 parkan: isn't ESOP conditional on liquidity?
01:29:07 parkan: if you have ESOP options and depart you have to buy out of pocket
01:29:17 Martin Fulgueiras: Hardt and Negri have some interesting views on the issue of non-profits being the flip side of the capitalist coin.
01:29:22 Cynthia Gaffney: The economics of technology must be directly confronted. An excellent presentation. Will be sharing this with many others.
01:29:27 Nathan Schneider: ntnsndr.in/DigitalKelsoism
01:29:31 Veronika Winters: I can't hear the sound at all
01:29:35 Veronika Winters: of leaf blower I mean
01:29:42 Hamnox: same
01:29:59 Nathan Schneider: Thanks, yes, I'm very interested in Hardt & Negri's notion of entrepreneurship for the commons in their book Assembly.
01:29:59 parkan: same
01:30:08 Steve Ediger (ChiCommons LWCA): Ha ha, I thought someone was adding commentary with the quacks
01:30:22 Veronika Winters: why do they put stop recording right next to screen share
01:30:25 Veronika Winters: that's dangerous
01:30:43 mitra: How do you get the initial finance, if you are planning an exit to 501c3 or community, given the high risks and costs of startup. I’m working with two entities currently considering a non-profit route, but the early stage funding is super hard as very few donors are willing to take risks on innovation.
01:30:52 Nathan Schneider: By ESOP I do not mean the Stock Options that are common in tech. Stock Options are generally a perk for some employees. ESOPs apply to ALL workers, and it is structured through a trust as part of the workers' retirement plans.
01:32:07 Nathan Schneider: Mitra, great questions. In that case it would be important to have investors who might benefit from c3 tax deductions, for instance. Or you would need to create a scheduled exit where you can pay off investors with revenue.
01:32:38 Joseph C: How is content moderated if the content is pushed to ipfs? Where it can’t be removed
01:32:39 Nathan Schneider: I love Better World Books, too, and I've loved to see it connected to Internet Archive!
01:32:42 Margot: what is copyright registration used for in this case?
01:32:55 Mai Sutton: If you have questions for Guo please send them here in chat!
01:32:56 Mix Irving: IPFS - does it use a DHT?
01:33:05 Gyuri Lajos: Yes
01:33:15 Micah: how can "e2c" models stay viable as rent extraction and concentration of power over basic stuff like housing gets more and more extreme? can these other models potentially challenge that reality, or do they inevitably get caught up in those tired old survival games?
01:33:17 Nathan Schneider: Colorado has been doing some exciting tokenized co-op deals as well. See especially opolis.co
01:33:23 parkan: @natan thanks, I've seen ESOP used in SV
01:33:24 Mix Irving: one of the challenges with DHT is that you can see who's accessing particular data yes?
01:33:35 Derrick Carr (he/him): (For any other people who googled it, DHT is a distributed hash table).
01:33:54 Mix Irving: (thank you Derrick, good point)
01:34:03 Nathan Schneider: If anyone is interested in a recent Exit to Community in journalism here in Colorado, join us at this event tomorrow: https://www.colorado.edu/lab/medlab/2021/05/18/how-24-colorado-newspapers-are-staying-locally-owned
01:34:05 parkan: @mix https://github.com/gpestana/notes/issues/8
01:34:22 parkan: see this research on privacy preserving DHTs
01:34:55 Steve Ediger (ChiCommons LWCA): Realistically we do need servers; the average user cannot deal with a total p2p solution. However, at ChiCommons, we are limiting our servers to geographic neighborhoods.
01:34:59 parkan: also tell Nico I said hi :)
01:35:12 Mix Irving: Thanks @parkan
01:35:25 Nathan Schneider: Steve, interested in hearing what felt narrow about that account of the commons.
01:35:56 Nathan Schneider: And no, there is no "Zebra structure." Zebras Unite is a network (now a co-op! and nonprofit!) of founders who are seeking new kinds of community-accountable structures.
01:35:58 mark seiden: is your service more censorship resistant due to your architecture? to what extent do your writers use their true identities when writing?
01:35:59 Sarah Kaplan (she/her): Distributed governance systems - if I am advising a platform co-op, what is the most up to date/well thought out system for distributed governance, that you know of?
01:36:22 Nathan Schneider: Sarah, what do you mean by "distributed" in that case?
01:36:23 mark seiden: what is the distribution of writers in china, taiwan, hong kong, elsewhere?
01:36:52 Mix Irving: Dependance on large aggregators are a danger - how do you prevent another Google emerging
01:37:09 Mix Irving: (monopoly of meaning making)
01:37:30 Mix Irving: (monopoly on directing attention, harvesting user data about attention)
01:37:47 Sarah Kaplan (she/her): @Nathan, where a huge number of users make decisions…and the founders need to determine how to explain what decisions are made by whom, and how they will make those decisions.
01:37:47 christina bowen: 100% ^
01:37:56 christina bowen: @mix good point
01:38:38 Nathan Schneider: @Sarah, depending on how large, I've had good experiences with ~100 people on Loomio + a clear set of bylaws, such as with communityrule.info.
01:39:11 Steve Ediger (ChiCommons LWCA): @Nathan Schneider. I’ve been working with Michel Bauwens for over 15 years and the p2p crowd has a much more diffuse approach to a commons definition. But perhaps I was speaking too quickly. I’ll need to look at your e2c materials.
01:39:13 parkan: loomio seems to be leading the way here
01:39:34 Nathan Schneider: But for larger communities, it might be better to just rely on email newsletters + simple voting apps + a space for discussion like Discourse.
01:39:54 Steve Ediger (ChiCommons LWCA): decided (Barcelona) may provide a way forward
01:40:05 parkan: taiwan's g0v initiative is an interesting case study
01:40:18 Steve Ediger (ChiCommons LWCA): decidem (damn auto correct)
01:40:48 Nathan Schneider: @Steve, I'm a longtime friend and fan of Michel, though I have been disappointed by his own recent narrowing of the meaning of commons. I think the disco.coop community is reflecting the commons vision more inclusively.
01:40:59 Guo Liu: @mix yes DHTs are transparent, so only public data should be stored as it. Non-public data needs encryption first. But still, the location (ip) of user is still transparent.
01:41:38 Guo Liu: * as is
01:41:45 Nathan Schneider: Yes, I've been interested to hear that non-governmental groups are starting to use Decidim. I just heard about an academic department using it! I haven't gotten to try it with a group yet, though.
01:42:00 Mix Irving: @guo the DAT team considered putting e.g. Wikipedia into DAT, but decided against it because of the privacy concerns
01:42:17 Mix Irving: e.g. people could see when I've been reading about "herpes simplex"
01:42:23 Nathan Schneider: Amen to "unseen care work"! That's the kind of commons thinking that disco.coop is doing as well. Go Socialroots!
01:42:23 parkan: @steve is there a EN version? sadly I don't speak Catalan
01:42:27 Mai Sutton: If anyone has any questions for Ana and Christina, please send them here!
01:42:30 Wendy Hanamura: Can you give us an example of a problem that your “Collective Action protocols” are addressing?
01:42:46 Sarah Kaplan (she/her): @Nathan I asked because my client sent me info about disco.coop and said they wanted to use this, and this makes me wonder how many other models there are, and which are most important to know about.
01:43:01 Sarah Kaplan (she/her): Or “the DisCo model”
01:43:20 Steve Ediger (ChiCommons LWCA): @parkan, yes there is an translated (EN) version, but I don’t have the link currently.
01:44:10 Nathan Schneider: I think of DisCo as very much a work in progress rather than a finished, fully tested model. Which is a good thing, but folks need to know what they're getting into.
01:44:10 Mix Irving: Here's a fun spacial hangout space for the afterparty (potentially)
https://rambly.app/
01:44:20 Guo Liu: @mix yes I think the privacy issue in p2p network is very hard to solve, if we still want to have a decent speed. Encryption provides some protection, but not for public data.
01:44:40 Veronika Winters: rambly looks like gathertown
01:44:46 Steve Ray: Have you / do you anticipate push-back from people who might think you are inhibiting their “free speech”
01:45:07 mark seiden: do you actually believe that people recognize the fractal-ness? i would expect that they mostly think of the one-on-one and the one-to-many communication problems
01:46:31 Steve Ediger (ChiCommons LWCA): Yes Ana! we need anthropologists, community organizers, etc to work with technologists
01:46:55 Mix Irving: PROCESS (suggestion): make it easy to spot questions amongst the chat by prefacing it with "QUESTION:"
01:47:05 parkan: +1
01:47:07 Guo Liu: +1
01:47:08 Celestial Hanley: +1
01:47:16 Mai Sutton: Yes thank you Mix!
01:49:44 parkan: paging Tim Wu
01:49:44 mark seiden: “one company, universal service” was their motto.
01:50:53 N A E - He/him: @Parkan @steve here is an English instance of Decidim but it is a work in progress and not an out of the box solution, natch. https://ustechworkercoops.org/
01:51:24 parkan: thank you!
01:51:35 mark seiden: the absense of billing for almost anything on the Internet distinguishes it from the telephone network.
01:51:44 Brad: I recognize that duck
01:51:44 Nathan Schneider: Are y'all using it, N A E? I heard the podcast about y'all testing it, but it sounded like you hadn't really road-tested yet.
01:52:21 Mai Sutton: If anyone has any questions for Santiago, please send them here! And preface with “QUESTION” :)
01:52:44 Nathan Schneider: I'm so into how much you hear the word "optimistic" lately. Or do we mean "hope"?!
01:52:55 Andrew Pam: In the Xanadu model, we called the immutable data layer the "permascroll" and the distributed data sync was the "bebe" or "back-end to back-end" protocol.
01:53:03 Mix Irving: QUESTION: what does *ownership* mean in hyperhyperspace?
01:53:08 mitra: QUESTION: The Internet appeared in large part because standards allowed a large number of organizations to work on their own part of it independently - eg. On the wire protocol OR on the middle layer OR on the app. BUT that would require Dweb entities to release some control of parts of the stack, rather than trying to build all the way from the App to the wire, to define common API’s between the layers, do you think that is likely ?
01:53:17 N A E - He/him: @nathan not fully, the documentation is not great. A student team plans to analyze this Summer
01:53:21 Mix Irving: QUESTION : how many of you are building / using hyperhyperspace at the moment?
01:53:29 Steve Ediger (ChiCommons LWCA): Question: Does this layer replace the data layer in the scheme?
01:53:30 Micah: "suburb, suburb awake"
01:54:14 christina bowen: ^ this feels like a magical invocation that we really need. ><
01:54:22 Gyuri Lajos: Question if I understand it correctly there are no servers only thing people need is a web browser so it is WebNative as Fission.codes?
01:54:31 Gavin Doughtie: How would this compare to Tim Berners Lee's SOLID?
01:54:38 Guo Liu: Questions: how does it different / what is the advantage from other p2p protocols, such as IPFS, Dat, webtorrent?
01:54:44 Joseph C: Question: what serves the chat app ?
01:54:49 Gyuri Lajos: question what kind of database?
01:54:52 parkan: +1 to Guo
01:55:43 christina bowen: +1 ^
01:56:13 Margot: (looking forward to answers to all these questions!)
01:57:11 Santiago Bazerque: suburb suburb awake: it was randomly generated, si it was kind of magical :)
01:57:46 Santiago Bazerque: > How would this compare to Tim Berners Lee's SOLID?
01:58:04 Wendy Hanamura: Ahau = Traditional Knowledge Management
01:59:37 Santiago Bazerque: I don’t know if I really understand SOLID but HHS attempts to have a layer where dapps can actually run, instead of having a way for people to store their information in a privacy respective / true ownership allowing pod
01:59:51 Santiago Bazerque: > Question: what serves the chat app ?
01:59:53 Nathan Schneider: ooh, I love Mix's .md presentations. I tried being that cool once after seeing him do this.
01:59:58 Selina: Suggestion: How about enabling Zoom's Q&A box for the next dweb meeting? It will not only be easier to find questions for those who need to read them out or answer them, but it will also help other attendees more easily find the answers, because the answer will show up next to the question.
02:00:07 Gyuri Lajos: Interpersonal Idenity
02:00:22 Santiago Bazerque: It’s a static site hosted in CloudFlare
02:00:28 Santiago Bazerque: CloudFlare + S3
02:00:42 Santiago Bazerque: + a signalling server so the browsers can connect to each other
02:00:56 Mai Sutton: If you have questions for Mix, please write “QUESTION” and send them here
02:01:03 Gavin Doughtie: > + a signalling server so the browsers can connect to each other
02:01:07 Gavin Doughtie: Pusher?
02:01:11 Santiago Bazerque: > question what kind of database?
02:01:26 Santiago Bazerque: it ends up being a typed key value store with object hashes for keys
02:01:51 Veronika Winters: QUESTION: did you pick ssb as backend because of internet connectivity issues?
02:02:16 christina bowen: QUESTION: what sort of implications does interpersonal identity have on the models for personal identity being explored?
02:02:28 Benedict Lau: does the Pataka hold the entire network or it’s partial as well?
02:04:06 Ken Berkun: Where can I find a simple description of this. I watched you talk and I still don't know what it is.
02:05:39 Brewster Kahle: yes
02:05:48 Margot: neat avatar
02:05:53 Steve Ediger (ChiCommons LWCA): +1 to data sovereignty
02:06:07 Ken Berkun: Ahua
02:06:13 Mix Irving: @christina - intersubjective identity and narratives are of great interst. The data structure of being p2p forces us towards pluralism.
02:06:49 Wendy Hanamura: Agora = social network+++
02:06:58 Mix Irving: We have a combination of "anyone can edit" along with "attestation" (as in different people can assert whether they agree with / support a particular telling)
02:07:26 Margot: randomly came across agora last week, nice coincidence!
02:07:28 christina bowen: Neat. Story shards
02:07:57 Nathan Schneider: Here's me! https://anagora.org/nathan-schneider
02:08:17 Sarah Kaplan (she/her): I love this presentation, I’m so glad I came tonight!
02:08:19 Mix Irving: @Benedict - the Pataka holds the entire "neighbourhood" of data. i.e. only a particular family/ tribe. The system is designed to be more of an archepelago of islands than a globally connected network
02:08:20 Ana Jamborcic: This is so cool!
02:09:10 Mai Sutton: If anyone has questions for Vera please write “QUESTION” and send them here!
02:09:10 Steve Ray: QUESTION: How do you handle curation?
02:09:12 Nathan Schneider: I see hypothes.is is automatically enabled as well.
02:09:55 Joseph C: QUESTION: is namespace with [[wikilinks]] an issue?
02:10:05 Mix Irving: QUESTION: why are you working on this?
02:10:19 Mix Irving: (i.e. what motivated you )
02:10:48 Mix Irving: <3
02:11:01 Margot: really cool
02:11:10 Gyuri Lajos: question 1 server or federation of servers?
02:11:27 Joseph C: Cool, that makes sense as I explore it more
02:11:28 Mix Irving: this is cool!
The "peer register" is a goal that lots of people have, but they tend to fail because they go stale
02:11:33 Mix Irving: this feels much more living
02:11:42 Nathan Schneider: I love this. Personal mind maps are so... personal and I always feel weird about the idea of handing mine to someone else's server.
02:11:57 Wendy Hanamura: Time to Socialize: Move over to Gather.town!
https://gather.town/yDLHcduAtUVGITWf/dweb
Password: GetDweb
We’re taking a month off
See you back in August!
02:12:27 Cynthia Gaffney: Thank you all!
02:12:35 Veronika Winters: Gyuri: the data is just linked git repos
02:12:35 Guo Liu: Thank you!
02:12:37 Benedict Lau: Thank you!
02:12:38 BZ She/Her: Thanks to everyone for the quacks
02:12:44 Wendy Hanamura: Thank you to all our speakers for sharing their vision!
02:12:45 christina bowen: Thanks!
02:12:49 Jay Carpenter: Thank you!!!
02:12:49 Dorothy Santos: Thank you so much!
02:12:49 Joseph C: Thanks everyone :)
02:12:54 Mix Irving: your quaking was much appreciated @BZ
02:12:55 Bogdana (Bobi) Rakova: Thanks everyone!!
02:12:59 N A E - He/him: Thanks!
02:13:00 Wendy Hanamura: Hope to see you in person soon!
02:13:01 Toby Negrin: Thanks everyone!
02:13:01 Alicia Urquidi Diaz: Thanks all!
02:13:04 Ana Jamborcic: thanks!